Next Alien Movies Needs Colonial Marines Again
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What MILITARY Mistakes Did The Marines In Aliens (1986) Make?
- Thread starter Kaiju_Alpha
- Start date
- #1
By that, I mean solely military machine mistakes in tactics and doctrine.
After all, being in a Aliens film and not existence name Ripley isn't a war machine mistake....
How should they have reacted to the events of the film?
For reference, allow'due south employ the Special Edition of the motion picture - considering who doesn't similar Sentry Guns!
- #2
At the very least, they should accept returned to the APC, considered what weapons they could have used, and and then returned, not but with the safer weapons, but understanding how they would best be employed.
2. The moment they started getting movement, they should have withdrawn. Right so. Why? Beause the timing of the motion, made it evidently it was an ambush. The fact that they couldn't see their enemies on infrared put them at an immediate disadvantage.
Edit:
3. Forgot this. Not fucking securing their dropship. Forget the danger of aliens, you have an entire settlement where hundreds of people have gone missing--for all you know, you accept a crazy lunatic wandering effectually. Oh look, you have one traumatized surviving child, who can't talk\, but conspicuously was hiding from something.
So exercise you A. close the door of your dropship?
B. secure information technology with a guard at all times?
C. Get out it bareass open so anyone could only, y'all know, wonder in and take upwardly residence?
- #3
Dukat
Present day... Heh... Present Time! HaHaHaHa!
- #4
upon notiign that they could non use their primary weapons under the reactor, they should have immediately withdrawn.At the very least, they should have returned to the APC, considered what weapons they could have used, and so returned, not simply with the safer weapons, but understanding how they would all-time be employed.
That's adressed in the picture show has stupid tho. I effigy the OP wants stupid decisions the characters take that are treated has normal or smart in the movie.
- #5
Well fo rone thing, since motion detectors were literally hand held and could command remote devices--why didn't they, first thing upn landing, establish an alarm network, which would accept let them know something as moving effectually the dropship.That'due south adressed in the movie has stupid tho. I effigy the OP wants stupid decisions the characters have that are treated has normal or smart in the motion-picture show.
I hateful, situational awareness is literally one of the most important things every military drills into people.
- #6
- It's really weird they send an unabridged ship which simply has a unmarried squad, IFV, and transport craft onboard. You would expect the transport to be carrying something forth the lines of a Battalion, although you wouldn't necessarily accept them all defrosted at once.
- Information technology'due south really weird for the drop ship to have landed and hung around instead of returning back to the ship subsequently letting them off.
- An easy ride out
- Reserves able to reinforce
- Supply line elements able to ensure running out of ammo isn't a concern
- Air back up
is an example of the latter two being used even when the nature of the RPG threat and other complications prevented the first 2 from being realized.
Remember however that fundamentally the film is a horror motion-picture show meant to suspend your atheism plenty to make yous terrified of the monster and it does an adequate chore of that, hence why the OP is fifty-fifty a question.
- #7
I hateful, situational sensation is literally 1 of the nigh important things every military drills into people.
That be security, of which situational awareness is a part, but recall that Ripley's description was that the conflicting was brought aboard her ship via impregnating a sailor, non that it was actively seeking it out. Remember that the aliens' herd instinct and sheer power to reproduce came every bit a surprise even to Ripley.
So they kept the dropship some distance away, on the supposition the things wouldn't beeline towards and murder the coiffure.
- #8
The mission was compromised, right out of the gate. There'due south fluff backstory (and rampant fanon) that WY pulled strings to make sure only a small element, led past an inexperienced officer, was sent on the mission. Which doesn't really jibe with the fact that Burke had cut WY Corporate out of the loop (and it's unlikely Burke himself had that kind of pull). Ironically,
in a Cameron motion picture, the Big Bad Corporation seems as much of a victim of Burke's machinations as everyone else.Later that, there'southward the poor security (specifically of the dropship) posture, After they had already had the presence of hostile aliens confirmed (the wreckage of the Final Stand inside the colony, and Newt's comments).
Then, every bit others take noted, the deployment into what was obviously an Ambush-friendly area (once more, with the "possibility" of having to rescue/evacuate hundreds of people)....and then standing with that mission long after it was apparently fatally compromised (the resin hive plainly hinting at a major xenomorph presence....and then the upshot with not existence able to fire hard rounds within the place they were headed).
At the stop (the start?) of the twenty-four hour period, "competent military unit squashes bugs, saves people, heads habitation!" wasn't the story Cameron was trying to tell. His idea of the military is e'er straight out of a B-grade 80's Vietnam State of war flick (see: Avatar).
Dukat
Present solar day... Heh... Nowadays Time! HaHaHaHa!
- #9
From my perspective if we're focusing on sensible scenario for the Mil-side instead of moviemaking and contriving the Mil-side to not shell the threat:
- Information technology's actually weird they send an unabridged transport which only has a single squad, IFV, and transport craft onboard. Y'all would wait the ship to be conveying something forth the lines of a Battalion, although you wouldn't necessarily have them all defrosted at in one case.
- It'south actually weird for the driblet ship to have landed and hung around instead of returning back to the ship after letting them off.
This part does brand y'all question if it wasn't a setup from the begging. Like, the USS Sulaco could probably fit a Brigade of guys in in that location, why would e'er send but like fifteen guys? One wonders if Bourke himself didn't pull some strings to have if go downward like it did. But it besides makes you lot wonder why nobody, say pvt. Hudson, questioned how cool this mission was for merely a squad of guys. Only they are pretty dumb marines...
- #10
Just "acquire" a squad of Bishop from WY-corp, and dispose the androids afterwards they're done with the mission.
- #xi
Besides, the biggest question is, if Burke is so concern about his own secret profit to brainstorm with, why he bother with the Colonial Marines to begin with?Merely "acquire" a squad of Bishop from WY-corp, and dispose the androids subsequently they're done with the mission.
Because his screw ups got official attention. Since this is treated like it's probably merely a satellite communications system going wonky, it's not much official attending, but the USCM is supposed to protect American citizens, and then they need to make at least a token showing.
A big thing about Burke is he's non some master planner. He's a middle management weasel perpetually getting a scrap farther over his head until it gets him (and a lot of other people) killed.
- #12
Every single error the others mentioned was preventable. Hell, the Sarge could offer a proffer in individual to the LT. He didn't. The sarge is the experienced NCO, she should have known better.
The movie justified this as they are a military unit that just matter they ever did was "issues hunt". Vasquez asked if information technology would be real combat.
I gauge the real gainsay for them is taking downward a group of colonists that started a criminal organization or something.
Then I would say that the size of the unit sort of fits. Hiving more people would exist surplus to requirements.
The only thing the Colonial Marines do is chase bugs and roll up on an equivalent of a meth lab in a trailer park.
What I cannot excuse is that in that location is no boatman who stayed with the boat. They didn't even accept a getaway driver!
Hell 10 years old that are out to steal apples from a neighbors yard have a lookout. They didn't!!!
- #thirteen
Questionable discipline. Their very introduction involves terrorising a team member with the android knify stunt. I take absolutely not been in the armed forces myself, merely this doesn't strike me as superlative teambuilding. Likewise, them entering the scene with the IFV like an entire squad of John Waynes suggests that they take a very... action moving picture view of war. Used to, as previous posters said, squashing animals and civilians (which, to be entirely fair, was what they were supposed to be doing here, too. A flake more dangerous than usual animal, simply hey), which apparently led to deteriorating... good practice, 1 might say?
Besides, this squad of socially maladjusted rambos, with a fresh lieutenant in charge, had nerve gas and nuclear weapons with them. I'm... not too hot on that myself, tbh.
One can't help but class the impression that the colonial marines aren't an elite armed forces force, but more akin to colonial era militias and corporate mercenaries, used to squash ill-armed natives simply ill-suited to deal with serious or fifty-fifty unexpected opposition.
Which I'd fence they should be if all that expanding humanity has had to bargain with in centuries has been some easily squished conflicting bugs. The deterioration of capabilities when not required is hardly unexpected. And the dialogue as well every bit overall behaviour of the marines both imply that they're indeed exactly that.
The colonial marines are, flatly, incompetent. And that's exactly what they should exist, given all we learn about and see of them before shit starts going downward. It's non a bug, it's a feature!
Information technology's ignoring all the dialogue and mannerisms and pretending they're something they're conspicuously non that's the trouble. I suspect that this tendency comes from Cameron not writing a comedy and thus not actually making the Marines functional idiots, merely developing them naturally - their incompetence is the upshot of centuries of lilliputian more cleanup operations. From this derives the small size of the force ('it's been enough in the past!') equally well every bit the kind of people the 'military' would attract.
Once the colonial marines realise they're in deep shit, they kickoff adjusting, and while I'yard non terribly impressed with the aliens suddenly using wave attacks, the marines nevertheless all of a sudden rack upwards a decent killcount. Alas, too footling, likewise late.
That'southward actually practiced writing - the trouble isn't just some random idiot being an idiot, the problems are systemic.
But don't try to pretend these problems didn't exist and it's actually a SUPER Elite FORCE screwed over by WY. They were screwed over, just every single mistake they made from arriving at location until WY'south fuckery was exposed was their own.
- #xiv
Questionable subject area. Their very introduction involves terrorising a squad member with the android knify stunt. I have admittedly not been in the armed services myself, but this doesn't strike me as peak teambuilding. Likewise, them entering the scene with the IFV like an entire squad of John Waynes suggests that they take a very... action movie view of war. Used to, as previous posters said, squashing animals and civilians (which, to be entirely fair, was what they were supposed to be doing hither, too. A chip more dangerous than usual animal, simply hey), which patently led to deteriorating... skillful practice, one might say?
Stuff similar the knife game is relatively normal, bordering on mundane, in the military machine. It is pretty dumb but that's only day to day goofing off. It probably wouldn't happen in front of an actual officeholder and two fastened randoms though.
As for the load-upwards scene, it is abbreviated and action-y, only the basics of a pre-combat inspection are all in that location:
ane) You see Corporal Frost grimace as he loads a rifle, then place the rifle on a rack with a dozen other weapons.
two) Vazquez and Dietrich doing some sorta drills with their smartguns; I presume that'due south the equivalent of T/Eastward checks on a turret, making sure information technology has a full and smooth range of motion.
3) Corporal Ferro and Individual Spunkmeyer settling into the cockpit of the dropship.
4) Lieutenant Gorman basis-guiding the APC around the hangar.
five) The Marines getting their armor on, while Frost (presumably the unit armorer) bug out the last few rifles and Gunnery Sergeant Apone delivers motivational commentary so the social club to "become on the ready line."
half dozen) Everyone lines up, weapons at Port Arms and Gunnery Sergeant Apone looks them over. That'south an abbreviated version of what he should be doing as platoon sergeant, conducting a visual inspection before jumping off.
7) When they load up, Gunnery Sergeant Apone goes first and yous can hear him counting off -- that's final personnel accountability, making certain everyone is present and loaded aboard.
After that, loading onto the ApC:
eight) "I want combat seating, you know your places," depending on vehicles, some have seating arrangements that are just meant to pack equally many bodies and as much cargo in equally possible. That is not for combat though, where you prioritize fast egress over existence able to stack another 5 boxes of rice in back past trapping someone in their seat. "Get those weapons stowed," for condom purposes, followed by "Alright two minutes out," when they load up again. Everything at that place is fairly reasonable in context.
It is manifestly compressed and drenched in Hollywood but the procedure depicted isn't really "John Wayne" beyond the obvious Hollywood shit like neither smartgunner wearing a helmet. Some people really do audio like that. Al Matthews (the gunnery sergeant) was a Marine NCO for real during Vietnam and apparently given a pretty free hand with his dialogue, forth with doing some advising, for the movie.
If I wanted visual shorthand for an actually incompetent unit loading out to go somewhere, I'd have a bunch of idiots ripping through unmarked (naturally) piles of gear, looking for all their shit and bumping into each other constantly, while there is at least one negligent belch.
Pooka
Trainee of Darkness
- #15
Similar, okay, maybe it's not applied to accept a agglomeration of transmitters. Possibly y'all demand a big powerful thing to cut through the wibbly wobbly interference on LV-426. Know what I'd do and so? I'd leave a couple of dudes on the Sulaco with instructions on what to exercise if we neglect to check in daily.
That'southward basically the root of all the mistakes here; absolutely no back up plans for what to practice if something goes the slightest bit wrong.
- #16
Against what enemy? Pirates? Russians? Other forms of aliens?
- #17
Considering the strength composition.Against what enemy? Pirates? Russians? Other forms of aliens?
Poorly armed civilians most likely.
- #xviii
Space soviets. It was nonetheless the cold war, and so the background lore had the Russians having their own colonies, leading to border clashes. Also rebel militias and aliens, just the tech advantage meant those fights tended to exist insultingly easy.While I"m sure in that location'southward supplementary nerd shit materials that become over the wider world, what do the colonial marines exercise? The Lt never seeing combat is looked down upon, which suggests that at least some of the others accept seen some sort of hostile drop before.Against what enemy? Pirates? Russians? Other forms of aliens?
- #19
You don't outfit your troops with dropships loaded with more than weapons than an set on helicopter, tactical nervus gas and ferry them around on a nuclear-armed warship if all you lot look to ever practise is to shoot at lightly armed civilians.Considering the force limerick.
Poorly armed civilians most likely.
Like, this was a rescue mission to a colony of 150 people where information technology was expected that it was just going to be a bug chase against some kind of alien tigers or the like, the sort of "threat" that the marines effortlessly dealt with on other planets - considering guys with machineguns, sentinel turrets and the like comprehensively trump aggressive wildlife. They're not going to drib a sectionalization of troops outfitted with tanks and spacefighters and gundams to shoot dingos. Or to fix a broken colony transmitter after finding that the colony was actually A-Ok.
Proceed in mind that up until they actually landed in Hadley'south Promise, they more often than not expected that it would exist a simple extermination mission and they'd find the civilians broadly safe in their houses. That's hardly a situation where yous go in dropping cluster bombs, JDAMS and the like.
- #20
Yes, you do.You don't outfit your troops with dropships loaded with more than weapons than an attack helicopter, tactical nerve gas and ferry them effectually on a nuclear-armed warship if all y'all await to e'er do is to shoot at lightly armed civilians.
Every time Infantry is sent to put downward some two-flake coup they don't accept an uber.
- #21
Because they're armed for high-intensity battles.Yes, you practice.
Every time Infantry is sent to put downward some two-fleck insurrection they don't have an uber.
Riot constabulary don't cruise around in APCs armed with autocannons, helicopter gunships and cruise missile firing amphibious assail ships.
What logic are you lot applying that the USCM is somehow only armed to fight "poorly armed civilians" when a unmarried squad of them has far more than organic firepower than whatever team of IRL troops?
- #22
What MILITARY mistakes did the Colonial Marines in Aliens (1986) make?
Past that, I mean solely military mistakes in tactics and doctrine.
After all, being in a Aliens film and non being name Ripley isn't a military machine mistake....
How should they have reacted to the events of the film?For reference, let'southward use the Special Edition of the motion-picture show - because who doesn't similar Sentinel Guns!
Their in-universe reactions are about as expert as you're going to get if you approach it as someone who lives in their reality instead of as genre-savvy motion-picture show viewers who have the luxury of watching the motion-picture show repeatedly over three and one-half decades.
The mistakes they're making are a lot more understandable when Pvt Hudson's lines asking well-nigh the nature of the mission are taken into business relationship.
"Is this gonna be a stand-up fight, or another bug chase?" An individual Marine, who wasn't a lifer, had been on what was implied to be multiple missions in which he chased Space Coyotes. There is also the softer implication that he had really seen a stand-up fight and wasn't fazed at all past the prospect. He's shown later to not be an unflappable Iceman when confronted with mortal danger. Which, when taken altogether, should let you know what a typical mission is like for the Colonial Marines, and how they play out. They get out, and take to actively chase downwardly things which are no threat to them most of the time, or (on rare occasions) overwhelmingly boss annihilation that doesn't effort to run or hide. Pvt Hudson is nearing the stop of his enlistment and, prior to Xenomorphs, he had not once encountered something with a man level of intellect. "What do y'all mean they cut the power!? How can they cutting the ability, they're animals!"
Cpl Hicks and GySgt Apone never give whatsoever hint that they have seen anything like the Xenomorphs either (or anything even approximating them). Their demeanor does propose that they have perchance seen the effects of farthermost complacency or bad luck in a mission, but again, for the most role landing on a strange colony that has fallen completely out of contact is another Tuesday at the office for them, to include Cpl Hicks sleeping during the commute.
-------
All that being said, three weeks is ridiculous window for check-ins. Non simply because of what it means on the basis if things become pear-shaped, but just general administration and accountability. Information technology's especially egregious given the suggested graphic symbol of their operations. It would be no problem to give (and await to receive) a study immediately following a bulletin confirming their inflow and launching from the Sulaco. A quick update like..."Hey nosotros landed, and yeah, it'southward coyotes once more. These similar to chew cabling with electricity flowing through 'em and so all the antennas planetside are down. We'll be here for awhile hunting. I'll transport an update in a couple days with a better estimate of how long information technology'll accept to resolve.", wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation. That means that help is only weeks abroad (while you accept hours), and that in the event a bad windstorm or maintenance practices are the just trouble on the ground your Marines aren't taking 3 weeks of unplanned block leave.
I think the composition of the rescue force was a mistake. Instead of technical specialists, both civilian-side from WY and from the Colonial Marines, they have a literal and unironic adapt in the form of Burke, and what seems to exist a pure ground gainsay chemical element and air det from the Colonial Marines. Information technology could be that Bishop'southward job was to read up on, and handle any technical aspects of the mission that came up (and he did), but that still leaves WY not providing their own technical experts who could assess and troubleshoot whatsoever technical problems the colony might accept every bit a outcome of the Xenomorphs, or the aftermath of any gun fights with them, nor were they available to advise on technical matters that ended upward being extremely relevent to the mission.
Also, Spunkmeier should have only pissed in a Gatorade bottle and left the door to the dropship closed. If that happens the entire film is Ripley and the Colonial Marines accept a bad firefight, evacuate the site before nuking information technology from orbit, and eliminate an uncharacteristically hostile and dangerous alien species while rescuing the sole survivor of the colony.
They brought along a noncombatant for what amounted to technical expertise, then failed to listen to her advice. The best affair they could have washed really was lift off and nuke the site from orbit.
They did heed to her. Ofttimes. Fifty-fifty when that advice was well outside of her specific expertise or prior experiences with the Xenomorph. Cpl Hicks agreed to nuke the site from orbit but they were prevented from doing so when the Xenomorphs crashed the dropship. She was the i who planned out well-nigh of the barricades and obstacles in the infirmary. What she didn't do is control the Marines herself, but that'due south non the same every bit not being listened to.
Zero recon. That they weren't aware of the non-shooty-else-explodey environment they were entering until they were already deep inside is nothing brusque of shocking.The colonial marines are, flatly, incompetent. And that's exactly what they should be, given all we learn about and see of them before shit starts going down. It's not a issues, information technology's a feature!
Not knowing technical details of the installation isn't something that "recon" in the military context would address. That would be something that WY tech reps should be briefing beforehand or filling in as it becomes pertinent. If you ship in a team of Marines beforehand to practise recon, the only way they're going to figure out that yous shouldn't exist shooting or throwing grenades in at that place is by shooting or throwing grenades in in that location.
They're are a force being presented with a problem wildly outside expectations or experience with no margin for fault on their part. It would be similar an experienced pig hunter ran into a sounder of hogs with human-similar intelligence, who had adult the ability lower their body temperature to avoid detection by thermal observation devices, and would actively identify, track, and kill hunters. The hunter could do things to protect himself, only the necessity of those things just becomes apparent afterwards the fact. If a boar hides in the bed of his truck and waits for him to get to his driveway to jump out and maul him, anyone could say, "Well he should've installed a security system in the bed of his truck and had a secondary light distension device instead of merely using thermal and so that he could come across ambience temperature hogs slinking around him.", but they're doing it with the benefit of hindsight, not from a place of foresight. The hunter didn't go incompetent, he was just presented with a completely novel situation, outside of his experiences or any reasonable expectation.
Besides, them entering the scene with the IFV like an entire squad of John Waynes suggests that they take a very... action movie view of war.
Aliens is a movie.
That'southward why the characters are acting similar they're in a movie.
One thing that I don't see being mentioned; the only fashion to telephone call the Sulaco was on the APC. Really guys? No redundancy? Like, forget xenomorphs. What if information technology but breaks?Like, okay, possibly it'south not practical to take a agglomeration of transmitters. Maybe you lot demand a large powerful affair to cut through the wibbly wobbly interference on LV-426. Know what I'd do then? I'd leave a couple of dudes on the Sulaco with instructions on what to do if we fail to check in daily.
That'south basically the root of all the mistakes hither; absolutely no back up plans for what to do if something goes the slightest bit incorrect.
That in completely typical of advice setups. The intra-unit/intra-element radios won't have the ability to contact others outside of the element. The radio used to keep squads and fireteams in contact with each other aren't going to be able to attain the USS Essex to inquire for help. The thing that makes it more than fantastical is that there is one squad with one APC handling the mission.
Having the radio that tin dial home be in the APC is completely reasonable; the PL (the guy who'southward job to exercise oversight, decision-making, and control over the mission) is at that place, it is both mobile and the Marines won't exist straying too far from it, no one has to carry the radio if information technology is in the APC, and the APC is probably the most protected location on the basis earlier they forted upwardly the hospital.
As well I'yard pretty sure the dropship could talk to the Sulaco also.
While I"chiliad sure there's supplementary nerd shit materials that go over the wider world, what do the colonial marines practice? The Lt never seeing combat is looked downwards upon, which suggests that at least some of the others take seen some sort of hostile drib before.Confronting what enemy? Pirates? Russians? Other forms of aliens?
The dialogue states that they do a lot of "bug hunts" which is generally understood to mean hunting down hostile/annoying/merely present alien species.
- #23
It'due south been a while so I might exist misremembering the dialogue just the impression I got was that the 17 days was travel time, whereas 'overdue' was unspecified but a possibly short given that when Hudson went off on his rant he specifically says they won't final 17 hours, never mind 17 days.All that being said, 3 weeks is ridiculous window for check-ins. Not just because of what it means on the basis if things go pear-shaped, just but general assistants and accountability. It'south specially egregious given the suggested character of their operations. Information technology would exist no problem to give (and expect to receive) a written report immediately following a bulletin confirming their arrival and launching from the Sulaco. A quick update similar..."Hey nosotros landed, and yeah, it's coyotes again. These like to chew cabling with electricity flowing through 'em so all the antennas planetside are downward. We'll be hither for awhile hunting. I'll send an update in a couple days with a improve judge of how long it'll have to resolve.", wouldn't exist an unreasonable expectation. That means that help is only weeks away (while you have hours), and that in the event a bad windstorm or maintenance practices are the only problem on the ground your Marines aren't taking three weeks of unplanned cake leave.
- #24
The men were not enough to rescue hundreds of people anyway. They would only keep a few rooms in command and could not hold the whole town, they should raid through to the interest points and the zone of assault (the reactor when they institute the people were nether information technology) merely they did not have security within otherwise and better to campsite outside with fields of view and fields of fire, the vehicle and helo can give burn protection outside.
They did not maintain the bubble of security, the perimeter equally they moved. When in the reactor they dispersed to away from visual link and did non firm up a perimeter immediately, defeat in details. Etc.
- #25
It is a troop transport on extended deployment. The thing they came on is an equivalent to a modern-twenty-four hours Amphibious Assault Ship. Or if nosotros look further dorsum a cruiser further back a colonial station ironclad, further back however a frigate.What logic are yous applying that the USCM is somehow simply armed to fight "poorly armed civilians" when a unmarried squad of them has far more organic firepower than any team of IRL troops?
They have a boarding gun and a row boat. and there is 12? of them.
If they expected to fight anything other then poorly armed civilians in a "stand up up fight" there would be more of them.
And looking at the Nostromo and the CM send information technology looks quite capable of winning a space fight with an average spaceship.
They accept the means to eradicate a small colony. and if 12 men is enough to deploy versus an boilerplate colony then they don't expect oposition stronger than poorly armed civilians.
Those nukes and toxic gas, is the equivalent of an mortar and AT missile in the back of a Humvee.
That dropship is used as send. Those missiles on information technology are equivalent to a door gunner on a blackness militarist.
As for IRL.
in Eighteen century a small infantry detachment had 50 musket balls per person.
In WWII a small infantry detachement had a mortar and calorie-free machine guns with them.
When I was in the ground forces a modest infantry detachment had a IFV with a cannon and guided AT missiles, a GPMG, and a rocket launcher.
So in the far time to come an butter bar LT having admission to nukes and a spaceship? I buy that.
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